My Apology to Wine Spectator (or “Has Hell Frozen Over?!??”)
Here’s something that you don’t see every day.
I’m about to give props to Wine Spectator.
And I’m going to apologize to their Forum members.
I will wait a moment to let the air of collective “WTF?!???” clear the room.
Ok… also, please pick your jaws up from the floor.
First, let’s provide a bit of background: A recent post on Tyler Coleman’s blog (Dr. Vino) explored a controversy on the eRobertParker.com forums, and in a comment on Tyler’s post I chimed in with the following extremely unhelpful comment (reproduced here because the post has about 1 billion comments now and I don’t want you to have to page through them to find it… I hope Tyler doesn’t mind!):
On April 16th, 2009 at 5:59 am ,1WineDude wrote:
The Wine Spectator forum is far, *far* worse. I’ve watched their moderators join in on discussions that clearly violate the forum’s participation policies…
Afterward, I was contacted by Tom Matthews, the Executive Editor of Wine Spectator. He wanted more information on my criticism, and I advised him that the thread I was primarily referencing no longer existed on the forum (apparently having been removed sometime last year), but that there were other examples of what I considered overly-aggressive treatment of me and other bloggers on the WS forums.
In exchanging e-mails with Tom, I was impressed that he cared enough about this to follow it up seriously. I also realized during our echange that my comment on Tyler’s post just sounds like a nasty, snide, negative attack. It’s got no background or context, tells no story, doesn’t explain how it relates the eBob forum controversy… it’s just totally and completely unhelpful. It’s useless.
So, I apologized to Tom, and I offered an apology on the WS forum (that one is probably turning some heads), and I’ve apologized on Tyler’s post via a follow-up comment – though again it might be tough to find it in the thread of gazillion comments, so here it is below:
On April 19th, 2009 at 3:36 pm ,1WineDude wrote:
Hi all – I’ve been corresponding with Tom Matthews regarding my previous comment in this post about the Wine Spectator forums.
I’ve subsequently apologized in the forum and to Tom, because by not providing the background of *why* I think the WS forums are worse, my comment simply comes off as a snide attack.
I am sorry about that. If anyone wants to know why I don’t like the WS forums and called them a snake pit on my blog, you can check out the threads available here and see for yourself how I was treated:
I don’t respect the forums any more than I did previously, but thanks to Tom reaching out to me I can understand fully why my comment could be perceived as a snide attack, so I’m officially saying that I’m sorry for that. I may really dislike some of the WS forum members, but I still believe that everyone, including those that treated me badly, deserve more respect than what I showed here via my comment.
I’ve not changed my view of the Wine Spectator forums – I still think discussions there sometimes devolve into a snake-pit of acrimony, mostly due to the input of a few very rotten apples spoiling the bunch, and a lack of sufficient moderation.
But I also truly believe what I wrote above – everyone deserves a basic level of respect, not snide hit-and-run sideswipe comments without context. Even the folks who might not think that I deserve respect.
I’d happily debate any WS forum member on the relative value of blogs vs. wine mags, on how differently I think that they should treat new forum members, or on how different and positive discourse is on alternative sites like the Open Wine Consortium. But I shouldn’t have blasted the WS forum in a public setting without providing the proper context to back it up, and I’m deeply grateful to Tom for reaching out to me and with meaningful, civil discourse pointing out the un-helpfulness of my comment.
I should also add, for the benefit of my harshest critics on the WS forum: Tom mentioned to me that he’s a follower of the 1WineDude.com blog. I’ve got your chin band-aids here, folks – I’m sure many of you will be needing them after that.
Anyway – Mad props to Tom, and apologies to the WS forum members.
Now, if any WS forum members would like to apologize to me and my fellow wine bloggers for any past disrespectful transgressions from civil discourse on their part… I’m sure we’re all ears…!
Cheers!
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Joe, Thanks for this. All of us say things that, on reflection, didn't convey the meaning we intended. It's honorable to go back and set the record straight.
Tom Matthews
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Thanks, Tom – I appreciated you reaching out, and pointing out the repercussions on the Wine Spectator side. Cheers!
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:37 pm
After reading part of that Spectator wine thread, yup, I stand by my post about boards and the lunatic fringe.
No self-promo, but I hope you don't mind the link:
http://goodgrape.com/index.php/articles/comments/...
April 23rd, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Excellent follow up by all. I think we're in an evolving medium and one way…perhaps the only way… to really set standards and conventions is by violating what's in people's heads, but not yet written in words. __There's a wealth of progress that's coming out of this brouhaha and the fact that so many people are reading and commenting demonstrates it's a subject of passionate interest to a lot of folks.__The web has turned publishing on its ear, and we're all involved in the process of creating this new universe of journalism. Joe, you're absolutely right, acrimony and name calling (while it may be fun in the short run) is not productive…but this discussion I believe will be looked as a seminal moment in the evolution of wine journalism.
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Today we were talking about the fact that at the core of issues today is a lack of moral compass. Your compass is true north 1WineDude. Kudos.
April 24th, 2009 at 2:20 am
Not at all!
Just last night at a diner with co-workers from France, Germany, the UK, Australia, and Mexico, we were discussing on-line forums and many of them had examples of odd forum posts where people were vehemently attacking some seemingly minor issue or tiny transgression on the part of other forum members. So, it does seem to attract the oddballs, maybe internationally…
April 24th, 2009 at 2:21 am
Thanks, Steve – I hope you're right, because that might make me somewhat famous and therefore I could capitalize on it to make some cash. Just sayin'… ;-)
April 24th, 2009 at 2:21 am
Thank you, my friend! There's hope for me raising my daughter correctly after all!
April 24th, 2009 at 4:49 am
Whilst I applaud your "moral compass" ,my subscription to WS is still a thing of the past. I love your writing…keep up the good work.
April 24th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Understood. For me, deciding on whether or not I'd subscribe to WS (I don't) has nothing to do with the WS forums and more to do with their coverage of wine not being geeky enough for me (I'm a nerd :-). Cheers!
April 24th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
As a long-time Wine Spectator forum member, I'd love to debate you on the importance of blogs versus print media….but, as a long-time wine blogger myself, I doubt we'd have much to argue about :)
Great post- very cool that Tom contacted you.
Cheers!
April 24th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Hmm… sounds like we might be in violent agreement. Cheers!
April 24th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Joe–everyone's already said it, but it's a big thing to admit a mistake, especially publicly. That value is what will maintain your ability as a credible writer and incredible person.
April 24th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Dude, ____You cite Open Wine Consortium for its "different [=more civil] and positive discourse" This may be true, but not for the reason implied. The real reason is lack of participation. Sure there are over 3500 "members", 3400 of which are completely inactive. People sign up add a post or reply then are never heard from again. It will only realize its potential if people in the biz return and insert a comment from time to time, or use it as a clearinghouse of information. The exception is the blogger group on OWC (and its relative, the bloggers conference group), but it could be so much more.
April 24th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Hi Tom – great points, both about the fact that OWC civility might be due to its under-utilization, and also the general point about the OWC not yet maximizing its potential.
I would offer other examples, though, of forums that *in my experience* are more civil and open-minded than those at WS and that have far, far more members (and more *active* members):
WS Forum member count: 13647
Music forum TalkBass.com (pretty much *the* spot for on-line discussion among bass players world-wide) Member count: 123,269
Almost 10 times the amount of members, and (I'd argue) less than 10 times the amount of general snarkiness…
April 24th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
And consider the pleasant exchanges on Brad Harrington's West Coast Wine Net and Robin Garr's Wine Lovers' Page. . . .
P.S. How does one sign up to participate in your comment? I'm missing it; old age I suppose. I using OpenID to login.
April 24th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
It's not you, Tom – the IntenseDebate signup is not too prevalent. Try checking the "Sign up for IntenseDebate" checkbox when you leave a comment, or you can go directly to IntenseDebate.com and create an account (I think). Cheers!
April 25th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Wow – thanks, Dylan! I will try to live up to those words (well, at least as far as blogging is concerned ;-).
April 25th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
It takes a very big man to say that he's wrong.
This has been another very interesting week in the online wine world (referring to Tyler's post and follow-up, and Joel Vincent's open letter to Parker). Woven throughout all of this is Jeff Lefevere waving his hands saying, "we all need to get along, lest we lose an excellent opportunity with younger consumers." If only my laptop woes hadn't so thoroughly sidelined my online activities, I may have been a bit more vocal.
So, good on ya for apologizing, now let's get back to work!
April 25th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Like I always say, it take a Tough Man to make a tender chicken!
May 6th, 2009 at 12:11 am
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